Tournamenthouse.com Forums

ScanC · Captain

Now since things with the 3.3 patch has been solved and settled, I think it's about time to start thinking about the grande patch 4.0. Perhaps dividing the initial work on a few groups, similar to what was done during the 3.3 development, is a good idea.

Halftracks: One of the things I really hope we will se a bit more of, after the patch. Where they really as fragile as in cc2?

Graphic changes: Anything we should consider?

Tanks: Costs and values. Will the holy 18p Mark III remain untouched? smile

BoroXXX · 5 Star General

SaltyCDog · 2nd Lt.

Double the price of AVRE's....they have an impossible kill rate, and impossible indirect LOS.
If you don't increase the price then lengthen the reload time, and allow for the fact that the crew had to exit the tank to reload (I believe).
They are too powerful, with no german 'assault gun' equivalent

ScanC · Captain

The german tactical equivalent to the AVRE is of course the hetzer flamer. These two tanks can pretty much dominate certain maps. I can agree on nurfing them both a little, especially the hetzer flamer.

zon · 1st Lt.

I'm up for a few changes, mainly corrections, but I'm wary of point alterations (can be a can of worms really, with so many opinions on the value and balance of forces). Now take my pet peeve - the Daimler, armed with a six-pdr in CC. Hard to argue that doesn't need changed. Upping the pts on the MKIII and the HF, on the other hand, that's asking for a long drawn-out debate without consensus.

CB_Recon · Colonel

zon has a great point about upping points of tanks and so forth. I really dont see the need in upping the points of a hetzer FP especially . Why would any tank that can be killed from over 200 meters with a MACHINE GUN need to have its points changed. Its pretty easy to take out on most maps if the allies have the right units and prepaired for it. If they dont, then its the players fault for not prepairing for a possible flame tank attack. Pretty simple. the mark 3 I dont really care about changing the points either. they are good in some situations and bad in others, so the 18 points seem to give it justice , especially because the germans normally get less points than the allies . Now on small/medium pointers, If the germans are constantly dominating whatever map, maybe its time for the map maker to change the points and make it more even for allies.

ScanC · Captain

Well, I think the purpose of changing/correcting the points is to put more vehicles in use, making for more variation of the game. Both the Mark III and the hetzer flamer is such a good pick on such a great amount of BMs that... I personally consider them to be too cheap. Of course it could be argued instead, that other vehicles are to expensive. smile

ScanC · Captain

And about the daimler, I doubt we will see any kind of consensus on changing that one either. Everyone has there own kind of playstyle, using somewhat different units and tactics. But to not be able to have consensus does not equal having a 'can of worms'. What we need to find out is what vehicles the majority of us wants to see more of, or possibly less of, or possibly, what changes the majority of us possibly wants to see.

BigSmoker · Lt. Colonel

More vehicles for German means certain death in most cases. 50 cal fire gets them most times. 50 cal is kinda like american express. Don't leave home without it big grin

. Have made the mistake of not having a 50 cal before and was sorry most times that I didn't pick one. And if the 50 cal dosen't get the vehicle surely the mortars will. I just don't see people using them more no matter what the points. I also think more people would take a stuh 42 instead of a HFP if it was a little cheaper. 10.5 cm HE makes a nice boom but for 30 points it is to expensive especially when a stug 3 is only 22 points. mk3 could raise to 20 but after that IMO you will have to start changing all your german points on maps.

Homba · Site Admin

I think we have a neat solution in the works for the Daimler issue.

The current daimler is 8pts with no MG, weak armor vulnerable to mortars, MGs, and small arms/nades, and practically ineffective against infantry (due to lack of MG) except for the occassional AP pot-shot (which probably happen more than they should). But its big strength is its anti-tank gun. Atomic put a 6pounder in it to represent a two-pounder with a 'Little John' tapered bore muzzle attachment (creating higher velocity) which has nearly the same exact penetrating power as the older, bigger 6pdr. I actually corresponded with the British Army Museum about this a couple of years ago, and I got a very nice reply including penetrating power of both weapons at different range increments. I think I posted it somewhere in this forum. That is why the Daimler has so many rounds, because they are supposed to be smaller 2pounder shells. Atomic just did not go to the trouble to add another weapon to the database, since the 6pdr and 2pdr's performance was so close to identical. Ive tried to figure out if there was ever a Daimler model that mounted an actual 6pdr, but my research is inconclusive. It is mentioned occassionally online, but never authoritatively enough for me to be sure if it is not an error.

One of my standing arguments against changing the Daimler has been that it is a classic part of the Allies CC2 repertorie, an ultra-cheap (maybe too cheap!) but effective AT unit, but very vulnerable. It can kill a hetzer or stug from the front, which a Stuart (generally a more useful vehicle in CC2 than the Daimler) can't do. So the Daimler has its niche, it is part of the strategy of CC2 force-picking, with risk/reward aspects.

A big complaint about the Daimler has been it isnt realistic. One of those complaints is the 6pounder, which I think is dispelled by the above explanation. However another complaint is the lack of an MG, which most if not all Daimler models had. Of course, if you add an MG, the Daimler becomes effective against infantry not in hard cover. In woods, fields, hedgerows, etc, the Daimler suddenly becomes a decent infantry killer. So its price must increase. Compare it to a Stuart. Stu has good armor, good killing ability against Inf, weak against German tanks. Daim with an MG has good inf killing, good against G tanks, bad armor. Two out of three, same as Stu. One other thing to mention is that the Daimler's gun reloads at the fast base speed rating of 55, which only the MarkIII and Cromwell match (the Stu fires even faster, but the gun is weak). All other main battle tank guns reload at the base rate of 80. Getting off more shots faster than your opponent is a huge factor in winning tank duels as we know.

Tog has transformed the 234 german armored car, (never used due to its being 12 pts but practically identical to the 232 armored car which is 10pts) into a SECOND daimler. So we can keep the 8pt Daimler (but reduce the ammo to what a 6pounder ought to have, so that so many rounds cant be spent shelling inf) and have another version of the Daimler that has an MG, 3 crew, smoke discharger, and 2pounder gun (represented by the 6pounder).

My thought is that the new Daimler, the Stu and the Achillies should all be priced at 18. (This would be a two-point drop in price for the Achillies). They all have a set of strenghts and weaknesses that differ in type, but add up to the same level of capability (albeit in different areas). The Achillies is very similar to the Daimler in that it has a strong AT gun and weak armor. Its gun reloads at the 80 base rate, critically slower than the Daimler's, and has almost identical kill power at range. Its 50cal MG is stronger, and it has a few HE rounds, but its armor is nearly (if not quite) as vulnerable as the Daimlers to all the same threats (including mortars, nades, etc). The Daimler pulls even with the Achilles due to the Daimler's faster reloading main gun. 18 seems a fair price for both, same as the Stu.

What do yall think?

H

ScanC · Captain

Big Smoker:

BigSmoker · Lt. Colonel

Is the point of the 4.0 patch to envolve more 1/2 track vehicles for both sides?

18 seems a little stiff for the new daimler. 15 seems a little more reasonable but some testing would be a good idea to see how it preforms. The achilles to 18 is fine if no one cares about the 1/2 tracks which the achilles should be able to destroy with its main gun and 50 cal. at greater distances. I just don't see the 1/2 tracks being used effectively unless you set rules for no tanks or 50 cals on your Battle maps.

ScanC · Captain

When I say vehicles I think of all kind of cc2 vehicles ie. halftracks, cars and tanks.

Big Smoker:

nembo · 1st Lt.

Hm, interesting. Couple things on the Daimler.
-Shouldn't the crew be raised to three?
-Why not make a new weapon for the 2pdr? It would make it a little weaker (add to the balance).
-Whats so terrible about adding a MG? Nearly all (if not all) had one. Are we going to say that the ARVE is a infantry killer and thus we need to take its MGs away also.
-Why take away the 234 or 232 (or anything for that fact), for just another Daimler?

Any ways, just my two cents. Maybe its just I'm all for being historical.(German infantry had to deal with Daimlers with MGs, why not us?)

zon · 1st Lt.